Slash Sex and the Gay Man

[serafina20]

I came across a discussion in a few people's journals about slash and gay men's reaction to it. How the one's who've read most stuff written by women find it to be totally unrealistic.

Ya know what? I really don't care. I'm not writing stories about gay men having gay sex. I'm writing fic about my fantasy men having my idealized version of sex. Mostly, I write for myself; I can't stop, never could, never will (stop writing, that is). I also write for other women who, from the feedback I get, seem to like my sex scenes. And I tend to like the sex scenes they write. There's a whole lot of porn out there, and it sucks. Even the porn that I like is never half as good or erotic as slash. Now, no, I don't read gay porn; for me, if I don't 'know' the guys, I'm not interested (although, if someone pulled out a porn video and suggested we watch, I would). But even het fic is usually better than a lot of the porn fics I've read.

So, how much do I care if a gay man doesn't find me sex scenes unrealistic? Well, let me rephrase that: how much to I care if _anyone_ finds it unrealistic.? It depends on what the unrealistic part is. If it's because my characters are overly emotional, commit too quickly, or are too sweet, then you'd have to walk me through step by step and tell me what didn't work. That way I can figure out if it's a personal taste difference or if I went overboard. If the unrealism comes in because I got something wrong (say, a position that would never in a million years work, or have them do something I think would feel good, but in reality, hurts like hell), then I want to know, but you'd have to tell me what was wrong about it and suggest what to do in the future. And the 'hurts like hell' thing I might not be swayed by; I think it sounds hot when a fic mentions "teeth grazed lightly over Lex's cock." Intellectually, I know it would hurt, and unless in the fic Lex is into pain (an my Lex generally isn't) probably wouldn't want that done to him.

But, wow, it gets me hot. And obviously, if it shows up in a lot of fic, other women like the sound of it too. And if it squicks gay men, I reiterate: I'm not writing for them.

So, how much realism do I want in my sex scenes? Depends. I want some of the normal fuck-up stuff that goes on: hair caught in watches, people falling off the beds, people getting embarrassed about something, talking (not dirty talk necessarily, but chatty stuff, or comments about what's going on). I also like it when characters put on condoms or otherwise take the time to have safe sex. I don't need it in every fic, and if it's missing, I don't generally think about it, but when it's there, it adds to my enjoyment.

The lube and stretching thing is a murky area for me. Really, there are only so many times I want to _write_ a good preparation scene. Hell, there are only so many times I want to read it, so I totally understand when there's a time lapse that doesn't get explained (e.g. Clark spent several minutes preparing Lex, scissoring his fingers and stretching him out. Then he pulled out his cock and rammed home). And I'm fine if it's skipped, if I’m into the scene already; when I was at BAScon, Minotaur said several times that it depends on the guy, the situation, the phase of the moon, etc. on how much you actually need. And, on occasion, it slows down the action. I have never actually read, "One finger, two finger, three finger, dick." Ever. Of course, until I started reading old Sentinel fic, I'd never actually read the phrase, "He lubed himself up," either, so there's obviously a whole genre I'm missing. I, personally, tried to get around the whole issue of preparation, but Clark won't stop doing it no matter how hard Lex and I try to convince him Lex doesn't need it anymore, so I'm not getting anywhere.

And vocabulary, because in the journal I read, the guy complained about the use of the word 'cock.' (Yes, I know it's a personal thing for him, but I wanna talk about it anyway). Personally, I like that word. That’s my preferred word to refer to the male organ. It sounds beautiful and full and it draws a more complete picture of what I am trying to describe. I'm not using the word 'penis' (and you can't make me, nyah.). It's too clinical and kills my mood. I will use the word dick, but really don't like it. I don't like the way it looks or sounds or the image I get in my head when I read it, at least out of context. No, it doesn't throw me from the fic like penis does, but it doesn't add to my enjoyment like cock does. As I accidentally said to a guy once, "I just like the way (the word) feels in my mouth."

I visit Minotar's on occasion, usually when I want to make sure I'm getting a position right, or want to review a certain section. And I'd probably visit any other 'Tips of Slash Writer's by Gay Men' site that was put up there. But these are _my_ fantasies and the fantasies of other women. They aren't written for men, gay or straight, and I'm not going to let one 'dictate' how and what I write in these fantasies. I put in quotes because I know no one is trying to dictate, but the general tone was one of frustration and, "why can't they represent me the right way?" It's because I'm not trying to represent gay men. I'm just writing something I can enjoy.

Comments

[hederahelix.livejournal.com]

for what it's worth, cock is the term i prefer, but seeing as how i don't have one and haven't lately wanted to get up close and personal with one, maybe i'm not the best person to ask.

still, at least guys have cock and dick. we, on the other hand, are royally screwed when it comes to finding a term for our genetalia, a fact i was reminded of today reading dickinson. oh, sure, she was a victorian. she gets away with writing about dropping things into purple wells and volcanoes and jessamines and such. we try to pull that and it sounds like a bad romance novel.

as usual, i missed the post that probably inspired yours. sorry. and not following smallville, i don't know how many gay men there are in the fandom. in most of the fandoms i've been in so far, men of any flavor are kind of scarce on the ground.

i also once got complained at for having a character in a position that another writer thought was physically impossible, and i didn't think it was a good time to point out that it was one that was totally possible for me to get into, and that the character in question was known to be into yoga, so i didn't think it was a stretch at all . but then, the person who was griping at me also routinely has her boys boinking without the use of any lubricant because she doesn't need lube herself for anal sex. i know that when it comes to the lube and prep question, your mileage may vary and all, but really, i just don't buy that in a lot of scenes. sure, an experienced bottom who gets laid a lot and who just happens to be that way--that i can buy once in a while, but it cannot be as common as some stories make it out to be.

however, we're talking about your lex and your clark, or at least, i'm supposed to be though i keep wandering off (to be expected since i just got back from a step class where my heart rate kept edging up over 180, whoopsie, and then a full hour and a half weight circuit in which more than once i wanted to murder the annoying heterosexual men who were preening in front of the mirrors and looking at me like i was chopped liver. i swear, one of these days i'm going to lose it and scream, "you are so not my type, get over yourselves already." sheesh. if they think i'm too lumpy for spandex, they don't have to bloody well look. twits) ah-hem. anyway, low blood sugar and all that.

right, clark and lex.

it all boils down to how a particular writer explains whatever stance he or she takes on the sex scenes to me. if your lex doesn't usually need lube, so long as you've somewhere along the line established why that is--at least well enough for me to buy your version, then i'm good to go. speaking of going, time to feed the ivy before she wilts.

[serafina20.livejournal.com]

Well, I was talking about slash and smut in general, but used Clark and Lex because they're who I write the most. I stumbled across the conversation in

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Well, I was talking about slash and smut in general, but used Clark and Lex because they're who I write the most. I stumbled across the conversation in <a href="http://www.livejournal.com/users/meret>meret's</a> journal, then <a href="http://www.livejournal.com/users/rhiannohero's> journal</a> where I got the link to the gay man's (<http://www.livejournal.com/users/georgeh>georgeh</a>) post. About halfway down the page is the orginial post, which is where the discussion really takes place. The thing I find most offensive (and I'm pretty sure that's the right term) is that he says something ot the effect that he thinks what he dislikes is what women like (which is fine) and that he has higher standards than most slasher (which is what I find offensive). Because if this is a gender thing, how dare he suggest that his standards are higher because he doesn't like what women enjoy? Once again, not writitng for him, not intended for gayboy use. I don't try to dictate what men should like in their porn (I just wish it was more female-accessible).

I don't know how many gay men are in this fandom. Minotaur left last season, the one man I absolutely HATED claims he left, but pops up every once in awhile (he has a huge superiority complex too and I think his fic is shit) and then there's this man, whom I've never heard of until this post. But I found the original post interesting becaue, like most things, I don't think about men (gay or straight) as an audience when I'm writing. I coudl care less what they think. It's not for boys. ;)

And my Lex still needs lube; I just tried to get around having to stretch himi each time by having his body shift to accomodate Clark's (it made sense to me, and might in the terms of the fic). But I still write it, with lube. Becaue lube is fun (it just needs a better name)

[mos-self.livejournal.com]

I'm writing fic about my fantasy men having my idealized version of sex. Mostly, I write for myself...
I'm just writing something I can enjoy.

and that's basically the way it should be, as i see it. those are the right reasons for writing slash.

after all, it's *your* fantasy and you should be able to please yourself, first and foremost. if you can't write to please yourself, what's really in it for you otherwise? pleasing others is really just the icing on the cake.

my feeling is that if the m/m sex seems unrealistic to the point that readers complain, then they can always turn to plain ol' gay porn, which genre often is sorely lacking in all other departments except for the mechanics of the sex act. granted, that's the opinion of this gay guy; others may feel differently.

slash is still the domain of women, and it seems logical that women's perceptions and descriptions of m/m sex would prevail. i enjoy that aspect, personally, and i enjoy what women are writing, because i get plot and characterization and ideas that make the story worthwhile (although i certainly don't object to a PWP smut-only fic. but i don't read only those.)

personally, if i need the realistic m/m stuff, well, i can always go out and get lucky and manufacture my own 'realism'. and i can always fall back on reading porn written explicitiy for gay men. so far i haven't felt the need to resort to that since i started reading slash.

*******
as for 'cock,' well, i rarely hear any othe word used in its place except for 'dick.' and yes, 'penis' is wa-a-a-y too clinical to be used in fiction. unless it's being used by a physician in some medical report.

Re:

[serafina20.livejournal.com]

my feeling is that if the m/m sex seems unrealistic to the point that readers complain, then they can always turn to plain ol' gay porn, which genre often is sorely lacking in all other departments except for the mechanics of the sex act.

The only reason I'd really want to hear if it's unrealistic is if I got the mechanics wrong. Otherwise, if it's hot and works for most women, I'm fine with it. And there's always things that are going to seem off in anything; the main thing I'm concerned with is a) did I or the author sell it and b) do I enjoy it.

The bottom line is I'm not going to send my stuff to a gay man just to make sure I'm 'getting it right.' It's sex; I don't think there is a difinitive right, and it's a woman's version of sex, and my 'reality' of it has nothing to do with a man's 'reality' of sex.

Thanks for your comments! :)

[earthseed.livejournal.com]

I find most offensive (and I'm pretty sure that's the right term) is that he says something ot the effect that he thinks what he dislikes is what women like (which is fine) and that he has higher standards than most slasher (which is what I find offensive).
Forgive me for chiming in late and uninvited, but I just wanted to agree with you wholeheartedly. I read georgeh's post and was also offended. It wasn't just that he found the sex uninteresting or unrealistic from a man's POV. That's understandable and probably true. The thing that bugged me was that he said he has higher standards for slash and is an English major, so knows better than the rest of us. His whole tone was elitist and really didn't make me anymore inclined to care about gay men's opinion when m/m slash.

I'm off to find your fic and add you to my friends list.

Re:

[serafina20.livejournal.com]

Thanks for this. Sometimes I overreact to things and have been wondering if I was to that remark as well. Especially since I've always found Minotaur's site to be helpful and was glad it was there when I first started writing slash. And when I went to his panel at BAScon, I thought he was very helpful and supportive. Not insulting at all, as if felt georgeh's post. I'm really glad I'm not the only one.